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Post by southshorerat on Jan 6, 2017 7:03:05 GMT -5
I'm sure many of you are aware of South Shore Archery, been around about 14 years. I have done a lot of study and research on the subject of arrows over the last 14 years of if any of you have any questions feel free to ask I will try to give you the answer.
I never get tired talking about arrows. Over the last 6 years I have branched out to include crossbow arrows. This has opened up a lot of new questions and research. We even developed our own proprietary arrow line called Spynal Tapps and Tactical Tapps
We can discuss vanes, components, adhesives, spine or any arrow subject you wish to tackle!
Anyone interested in knowing why arrows do what they do?
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Post by elkguide on Jan 6, 2017 8:53:05 GMT -5
Oh boy! Oh boy! School is open.
When do the classes begin?
Anything that you post up explaining arrow dynamics and flight would be great Jerry.
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Post by tsm213 on Jan 6, 2017 10:54:47 GMT -5
What jigs are u using Jerry? As much as I like your arrows I've been experimenting with some different combos. I want to test some 4 fletch this spring. So I may pick a bitz up. Also when are you going to have your 2017 prices for sights. I emailed you a couple weeks ago about some LH sights.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 6, 2017 17:37:09 GMT -5
What jigs are u using Jerry? As much as I like your arrows I've been experimenting with some different combos. I want to test some 4 fletch this spring. So I may pick a bitz up. Also when are you going to have your 2017 prices for sights. I emailed you a couple weeks ago about some LH sights. We have 24 firenock jigs, currently they are the best on the market. We are setup to fletch all of a set of arrows on a single fletching jig. You should have no issues with the bitz jig for home use. I should have pricing soon, we will honor the pricing in our online store for current purchases.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 6, 2017 17:51:42 GMT -5
Let me give you a bit of food for thought
When arrows went from cedar to an aluminum tube something really interesting happened.
All tubes no matter what it is used for acts very similar when energy is applied to the tube.
In golf the tube used for a club shaft as it is swung develops a stiff plane 180 degrees through the shafts and it develops a neutral plane 90 degrees from the stiff plane.
The stiff plane is aligned with the direction of the swing giving the club a very good level of stiffness.
In fishing fishing rods perform very much the same as the golf club in that when the stiff side forms it give the rod backbone
In archery at the dynamic spine level when an arrow is shot will also develop the stiff plane then 90 degrees from the stiff plane a neutral plane develops. The stiff plane direct the energy toward the center of the arrow and out 90 degrees along the neutral plane in the form of oscillation
This is why indexing is so important.
a set of arrows that has been indexed will fly more consistant and the number of fliers will be greatly reduced or eliminated.
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Post by elkguide on Jan 6, 2017 18:00:27 GMT -5
What are the chances or maybe I should say, how long before someone develops an arrow that will withstand velocities above 350 fps? That to me is where development should be heading. Without that development, a 375 fps bow is worth nothing.
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Post by tsm213 on Jan 6, 2017 18:31:02 GMT -5
What jigs are u using Jerry? As much as I like your arrows I've been experimenting with some different combos. I want to test some 4 fletch this spring. So I may pick a bitz up. Also when are you going to have your 2017 prices for sights. I emailed you a couple weeks ago about some LH sights. We have 24 firenock jigs, currently they are the best on the market. We are setup to fletch all of a set of arrows on a single fletching jig. You should have no issues with the bitz jig for home use. I should have pricing soon, we will honor the pricing in our online store for current purchases. Any idea what the new 2017 spot hogg offerings will be??
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Post by p on Jan 8, 2017 5:17:22 GMT -5
Jerry, how important is it to have all the vanes, or feathers, perfectly aligned around the shaft. Will it effect accuracy or consistency if one is off a few degrees from the others?
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Post by nodeer on Jan 8, 2017 8:55:34 GMT -5
Glad to see you here, Jerry. Anything you can teach this crowd would be a huge help.
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Post by dreamrider on Jan 8, 2017 14:13:24 GMT -5
Jerry, approx a yr or two ago, you were talking about the natural spin a bare shaft can have for several feet after it leaves the string. Have you done anymore studies on this? if not would it be worth pursuing any further?
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Post by jayb22 on Jan 10, 2017 1:55:20 GMT -5
While we are all asking you a bunch of questions. What are your thoughts on the gold tip kinetic arrows? I used them last year and was impressed with their take on the insert/outsert idea. But I've always wondered what you thought of them.
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Post by arodpdt117 on Jan 10, 2017 11:45:26 GMT -5
Effing Aye we got Jerry! I was just going to order another dozen of the Spartans..need to check out the Tapps though. Welcome Jerry good to have you.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 16, 2017 7:21:53 GMT -5
What are the chances or maybe I should say, how long before someone develops an arrow that will withstand velocities above 350 fps? That to me is where development should be heading. Without that development, a 375 fps bow is worth nothing. Those arrows are available now! The problem is folks do not build their arrows correctly. Most of the time you go to a shop, you buy a bow, the guy puts an arrow on the bow, marks it and cuts the arrow. This is so wrong its laughable. Arrows are just as easy to tune as any bow. We have different components, weight, inserts, nocks, nock bushing, wraps and the ability to swap many of these from arrow manufacture to arrow manufacture. I build a lot of crossbow arrows, matter of fact I have my own proprietary arrow called spynal tapps. I have no issues building arrows that will travel 440 fps in the fastest bows on the market and obtain 1.5 in groups at 100 yards with field points. We have also seen 1.5 in grouping with broad heads at 100 yards as well. Much of the industry is beginning to understand that there is more to life then a very fast light weight weak spined arrow. Even at 80 pounds there are a few arrows on the market that will handle that speed. And since I have a fantastic relationship with black eagle I can get arrows made that do not exist. Currently I got them to make a 150 Rampage and I have some 200 x impacts in the shop I made for a 31 in draw 80# bow. So 350+ fps bows wont be a huge challenge.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 16, 2017 7:27:16 GMT -5
We have 24 firenock jigs, currently they are the best on the market. We are setup to fletch all of a set of arrows on a single fletching jig. You should have no issues with the bitz jig for home use. I should have pricing soon, we will honor the pricing in our online store for current purchases. Any idea what the new 2017 spot hogg offerings will be?? Yes spot hogg has dropped the boss hogg, the real deal and the right on. They have taken the right on and real deal upgreade them and are bring them back called the Grinder. There is no longer a large and small guard, they now have one guard that is called the MRT pin guard. you can have 3 different size pin guards just by change a ring on the shooters side of the sight. The have a new single pin pointer and a double pin pointer so if you want the two pin scope you will see what yardage both pins are set at so no more guessing.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 16, 2017 7:34:51 GMT -5
Jerry, how important is it to have all the vanes, or feathers, perfectly aligned around the shaft. Will it effect accuracy or consistency if one is off a few degrees from the others? We only use firenock jigs because they are 120 degree spacing on all 3 vanes but. I have never seen any issues with a bitz fletched arrow or any arrow that has a slight flaw in the way the vane sets on the shaft. The vanes guide the arrow through drag the angle of the vanes on the shaft add or take away drag. Since arrows spin there is no way to setup a rudder type system or guidance system on an arrow so the vanes actually guide the arrow. If this were possible we could shoot around trees like a guided missle. Since we cant we set the bow up so the pin is on the target that we want to hit and the arrow rest is tuned to match this POI. So vanes do not actually guide the arrows they create drag to help keep the point on the target the bow was setup to hit by holding the back of the arrow as stable as possible. Vanes add stability and resistance to tell the point to stay on target. Did I confuse you?
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Post by elkguide on Jan 16, 2017 7:35:53 GMT -5
What are the chances or maybe I should say, how long before someone develops an arrow that will withstand velocities above 350 fps? That to me is where development should be heading. Without that development, a 375 fps bow is worth nothing. Those arrows are available now! The problem is folks do not build their arrows correctly. Most of the time you go to a shop, you buy a bow, the guy puts an arrow on the bow, marks it and cuts the arrow. This is so wrong its laughable. Arrows are just as easy to tune as any bow. We have different components, weight, inserts, nocks, nock bushing, wraps and the ability to swap many of these from arrow manufacture to arrow manufacture. I build a lot of crossbow arrows, matter of fact I have my own proprietary arrow called spynal tapps. I have no issues building arrows that will travel 440 fps in the fastest bows on the market and obtain 1.5 in groups at 100 yards with field points. We have also seen 1.5 in grouping with broad heads at 100 yards as well. Much of the industry is beginning to understand that there is more to life then a very fast light weight weak spined arrow. Even at 80 pounds there are a few arrows on the market that will handle that speed. And since I have a fantastic relationship with black eagle I can get arrows made that do not exist. Currently I got them to make a 150 Rampage and I have some 200 x impacts in the shop I made for a 31 in draw 80# bow. So 350+ fps bows wont be a huge challenge. I figured that when the technology was here to balance speed, torque and pressure put on a shaft that you would know about it. Is it all in the tunig of the shaft along with having the correct deflection or is there more to it? So glad to have you spilling out info for us to try and keep up Jerry.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 16, 2017 7:38:42 GMT -5
Jerry, approx a yr or two ago, you were talking about the natural spin a bare shaft can have for several feet after it leaves the string. Have you done anymore studies on this? if not would it be worth pursuing any further? No because it does not matter, once shot the vanes are going to spin the arrow in the direction of orientation we choose. For those that may not know what this is When a bare arrow is shot from a bow the arrow will begin to either rotate right or left. You can put any arrow you wish on that bow and all of them will spin in the same orientation. Ironically not every bow of that specific brand and model will do the same thing. You can have two identical bows, one will spine right and one could spin left. I believe the small amount of spin does not effect the accuracy of fletched arrows.
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Post by elkguide on Jan 16, 2017 7:40:43 GMT -5
So Jerry...... 3 fletch or 4 fletch?
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Post by p on Jan 16, 2017 7:54:26 GMT -5
Jerry, how important is it to have all the vanes, or feathers, perfectly aligned around the shaft. Will it effect accuracy or consistency if one is off a few degrees from the others? We only use firenock jigs because they are 120 degree spacing on all 3 vanes but. I have never seen any issues with a bitz fletched arrow or any arrow that has a slight flaw in the way the vane sets on the shaft. The vanes guide the arrow through drag the angle of the vanes on the shaft add or take away drag. Since arrows spin there is no way to setup a rudder type system or guidance system on an arrow so the vanes actually guide the arrow. If this were possible we could shoot around trees like a guided missle. Since we cant we set the bow up so the pin is on the target that we want to hit and the arrow rest is tuned to match this POI. So vanes do not actually guide the arrows they create drag to help keep the point on the target the bow was setup to hit by holding the back of the arrow as stable as possible. Vanes add stability and resistance to tell the point to stay on target. Did I confuse you?Nope, not at all. I just asked because of the variances in price in the jigs that are available. I know you use Firenock jigs, and understand the reason, but wondered if there really was an advantage to the precision afforded by them.
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Post by southshorerat on Jan 16, 2017 7:57:46 GMT -5
While we are all asking you a bunch of questions. What are your thoughts on the gold tip kinetic arrows? I used them last year and was impressed with their take on the insert/outsert idea. But I've always wondered what you thought of them. Kinetics are not that good of an arrow, the kaos is better. I do not like the insert system because the ballistic collar is thin aluminum and can bend very easily once bent it needs to be replaced or thown away. You can shoot kaos or kinetics without the ballistic collars. I prefer to leave the collars off and just go with the aluminum outsert. IT is only a half in long and will stand up fairly well. I am not a big outsert guy. Example micro diameter arrows. The only inserts i like are the victory shok and the easton deep six. All including the costly firenock outserts are fine in themselves but when you try to install them you can and likely will run into consistency issues. The outside of shafts are not dead nuts the same arrow to arrow. Sometimes they arent even 100% round because most arrows are finished by what is called a centerless grinding process. So when you attempt to install outserts sometimes they are loose and you have to make sure they do not move until the adhesive is dry. Others are too tight so you have to sand down the outside of the shaft. There is no good way to do this and it leads to arrows that dont spin well.
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